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Gebrauchtwagen kaufen ... aber sicher!


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Hi Leute,

für alle die sich einen neuen Gebrauchten (egal was für ein KFZ) kaufen wollen, kann ich nur empfehlen, absolut auf der Hut zu sein.

Wie im Thema (Klick) beschrieben, bin ich nun seit fast drei Wochen auf der Suche nach einem Ersatz für meinen geliebten Zafira A (OPC-Edition). Da ich auch offen für einen Zafira B als Gebrauchten bin, habe ich mich auf diversen Portalen und/oder Online-Märkten bezüglich Gebrauchtwagen bewegt.
Manchmal stößt man auf "echte" Schnäppchen, die eigentlich fast zu schön, um war zu sein, sind. Also fand ich einen sehr schönen 1.9DTI, Baujahr März 2007 mit fast Vollausstattung (Navi CD70, 4x EFH, Klimautomatic, CID , Lichtpaket, Sitzpaket usw.). Der Wagen sollte kosten: 7800,-- und das bei gerade mal 65tkm.

Folgender Mail-Verkehr kam zu Stande, bitte beachtet, alles in rot dargestellt waren meine Fehler.

1. Verkäufer:
Hallo, Meine deutsch ist schlecht, bitte english!!

I appreciate your intent of buying my Opel Zafira. The car works and stands in perfect condition, i never had any problems with the engine. My last price is 7500€ and i believe it is convenient for us both. We live in the middle part of Italy in a beautiful sea-side city called Ravenna, region Emilia–Romagna. We had a nice place to stay during our summer and winter holidays in Leipzig. This is why the car has German plates and German registration . I bought it from Germany and i am the first owner. The reason for selling it now is that we are a nice couple of pensioners (i have 60 years old), we love spending our time (and money) travelling around the world by plane, so a car is no more useful for us. Also we sold our holiday house in Germany and bought a big farm here in Italy. If you are decided to see the car or make a test drive we are ready to make a trip to Germany and meet you personally. I am sure that we can find a nice city in Germany to arrange a meeting, a region acceptable for both. We would like to know more about you.
With kindly regards,

2. Ich:

much thanks for quick reply.
I'm really interesting. I'm living in Germany, *** near by ***.

Perhaps we can meet in Leipzig, Berlin, Hamburg or Iwould meet you at your holiday house here in Germany.

At the moment, but I've to wait for my payments for my damaged old car. The people, who's crashed my car is a little bad and makes troubles. But my own assurance would handle the loss in the next 7 business-days.

Kind Regards
3. Verkäufer:

Nice to hear from you.
The car is in perfect condition, it has never been involved in any accident (accident-free), no technical problems (engine works perfect), no any scratches or dents on the car body. We both are non-smokers, nobody ever smoked inside the car.
The vehicle has valid Tüv until March 2012. All inspections are done and all taxes are paid. The vehicle has a complete service book. As i already said we are in Italy now (also the car stands here in Ravenna), but if you are decided to have a meeting to see the car i am ready to meet you in Germany. I suggest you to meet next week on Saturday 18th of June in Hamburg. I will come with the car, all the papers and a contract of sale. Will be no
need for another appointment, you can take the vehicle immediately, i can let you our number plates(german signs).
If you will accept my proposal, i will look for a hotel to stay for me and my wife and i will inform you about the place of meeting.
We will arrive there with one day before our meeting and we will wait for you at the hotel reception. You can decide time when you will arrive.

This is my proposal.

I hope to hear news from you soon,

4. Ich:

I say: We have a deal!

Should I help you to get a good hotel in Hamburg? If yes, please tell me your category and pricing class and I would make a
provisional reservation for you and your wife.
If you want to arrive Hamburg earlier than Saturday 18th. June please let me know.

Perhaps, do you have some more pictures of your car? We are (my family and I) glad to find a new car after searching round about two weeks.

We are trusted in your words.

Kind regards
5. Verkäufer (ein paar allg. Mails mal weggelassen):

I am glad to inform you the place of our meeting, at ARCOTEL Rubin Hotel(Steindamm 63, 20099 Hamburg). We will arrive there on next Friday evening and we will have our meeting on Saturday at 08 o'clock.
I just discussed with my wife about our coming in Hamburg. We thought about our situation, we have to pay the fuel, the room of the hotel and to drive about 1300 km. In case you don't appear what we will do? Your are in a similar situation. We both have no guarantee that our meeting will take place.
For that reason i come with a good proposal, a guarantee for both that our meeting will take place. Please read carefully!
My wife (Francesca) will go to the Postbank here in Ravenna and will transfer on my name 2,000 euro to Hamburg using Western Union service. I will be the beneficiary of 2,000 euro in Hamburg (our meeting place). This is a transfer from a person to a person and takes about 5 minutes. When my wife finish the transaction on my name and i have the form at home, i will send you a copy. This will be my guarantee that i will be present at the meeting. I will have to take my money back, so i will have to come in Hamburg.
A similar thing i want from your side.
Your wife to go to the Postbank in your city and transfer 2,000 euro to your name using Western Union Service. I want to see you the beneficiary of 2,000 euro in Hamburg. You will take back your money from Postbank in Hamburg at the moment when we meet. When the transfer is done i expect your transfer document as guarantee that you will be present at the meeting too.
After we will see each other our transfer documents we both will be sure that our meeting will take place, because we will go together as beneficiaries to the Postbank in Hamburg to take our money back. This is the point.
This transfer will cost you about 80 euro. At the moment when we will meet, i will pay you back 80 euro, like this you have nothing to lose.
Please think at my proposal and give me your decision.
I'm ready to come in Germany, but without this proof i will not assume the risk to come there in vain.
6. Ich (bin etwas skeptisch):

that's nice, with your hotel.
I think with 08 o' clock you mean morning? That would be okay,

With your discussion about the guarantee that our meeting will take place, we are a faithfully family. We have only xxxxx,-- Eur for buying a new car and we are afraid to lost 2000,-- Eur on money transfers. That's much money for us.
But I would pay your hotel reservation (ARCOTEL Rubin Hotel, Steindamm 63, 20099 Hamburg, 68,-- Eur each person) as a guarantee. We will come and buy your car (like described in your mails and announcement) definitely! We trust in your words, and we think your car is good and you will come to Hamburg. We hope that our meeting will really take place anyway.

Please tell me, what do you think about our solution.

Kind Regards
7. Verkäufer (ist etwas sauer über meine Bedenken, Geld mittels Western Union zu transfrerieren):
If you do not like my car or the car its not like i told you , you will not purchase it - i will not ask money for compensation ! I am sorry that you did not understand my point.I am not asking you for a pre-payment in advance on my name ! I will never ask you for sending money to me before you will see the car ! This is an exchange insurance for me and for you that our meeting will take place and we can leave relaxed our towns because we will be 100% sure that the other one will be there as we agreed! As i told you, your wife or your friend , a person close to you must go to the Western Union Office to any Postbank there in your town and ask to make a PERSONAL TRANSFER to you in Hamburg. So you will be the beneficiary of the money that your relative will send you,not me ! You will appear on the transfer paper as receiver of the money and your wife will be sender. I will be the beneficiary of my transfer and you will be the beneficiary of the transfer that your relative will make for you ! We will take our money back when we will meet, we will go together to the WU Office in Hamburg. This is just a proof of coming! After that i will scan this document and send it to you attached on your email as my coming proof. And you must do the same thing, after your wife will finish this for you. This is my only condition and without this i will not come to Hamburg for this meeting, i am sorry. I believe a good deal is based of 100% safety for both sides and with this transfers i want to add a plus of security for me and for you as well that our meeting will take place. But before meeting this is my condition and i hope you will respect it, i will not negotiate.
I wait for your email.
8. Ich (will aber nicht 2000 Euro irgendwohin schicken):

sorry for my last mail, I've not really understood the Western Union Service and what you believed. So I've had a telephone call with my bank and the peoples there explained me how it works.

Personal I think, 2000,-- Eur may to be much for a guarantee. I think 500,-- Eur may be enough as a guarantee for our meeting.
[...] I would payout in cash for the car.

If you agree with my proposal, please let me know and than I will transfer the money to Hamburg:
Deutsche Postbank AG
Hachmannplatz 13

20099 Hamburg

Telephone: +49 180 3030330

Opened on Saturday: 8:00 - 12:00

soon as possible, but not before Friday this week. After money transfer is done, I will mail you a copy of the documents about my money transfer.

Please let me know, what your thinking about this.

Kind Regards from Germany.
9. Verkäufer (besteht auf 2000 Euro "Kaution" und kommt mir verdammt nochmal sehr mit dem Preis entgegen, da muss man stutzig werden):
I think that to transfer 2000 euro is a good proof and also you will not travel with all the money on you.
I ask for my car 7500 but i will make you a dicount 500. Just because you are a young and nice couple, also whit this 500 you will pay the fuel, the hotel and the WU taxes. With 7000 euro money for my car and my deposit 2000 euro i will have 9000. If you agree tomorrow my wife can make the deposit to my name and as soon as i have the document at home i will email you a copy.And your wife will make the deposit to your name the day after tomorrow.

10. Ich (nach dem ich etwas schlauer und noch skeptischer geworden bin):

I've had an telephone call with Western Union Service of Postbank in Germany, and they told me, that I've to be really careful to transfer money. The other point, it does not really make sense, when I transfer money from Germany to Germany, this is the same if I travel with my money. Postbank told me, that peoples can take money with faked personal identity cards, if they know the transaction number and the beneficiary. So I think it's not secure and not really a guarantee for us both (so Postbank told me), you can take my money and of course I can take your money. The money of one of us, which was slower, is lost. You must know, I'm working mainly in Internet Business and I'm paranoid in such things. With such high money transfers I'm afraid, not only via Western Union, but in any type of money transfer. I've lost in an other business some years ago much money via prepaid for an auction.

I agree, that we must find a guarantee system and I'm in this case with you. But you and I need the guarantee of secure for our money too. We must find another way of guarantee.

My idea is, I pay the hotel for your, if you arrive Hamburg and our meeting take place, you can return me the money for the hotel. This should be secure for you. For me, I'm not loosing to much money, if our meeting does not take place. You must know, each hundred Euro is really much money for me, after my accident with total lost of my own car.

Sorry, but I have to say, after the telephone call with Postbank, I'm nervous and afraid to loosing so much money you want as guarantee.

I hope, the meeting will take place and we find a new way.

Some question what I have:
Are you able to mail me a phone number of you? Do you have more pictures form the car and the documents?
11. Ich (nach dem sich der Verkäufer nicht mehr meldet, habe ich die Zeit genutzt und mich etwas schlauer über eine Art "Garantie" gemacht und eine Alternative gefunden. Natürlich möchte ich dies dem Verkäufer mitteilen.):

I've found an other solution for a guarantee that our meeting will take place:
We can use a custodian, a nonpartisan, for our business. Such person is mainly a counsel or notary. You and I send him some money and a copy of our passports. After this, the custodian send an email to each person, that the other has paid the caution. If we meet us in Hamburg, we go to this person, make our business and get our money back. Only with a valid passport, each person can get his money back from the custodian. So nobody can catch the money of the other business partner. That's really secure!

What do you think about this?
I wait for your answer.

Kind Regards
Seit dem ist Funkstille. Komisch ist nur, dass das Auto in anderen Anzeigenmärkte mittlerweile in Dänemark steht. Diesen Vorfall habe ich natürlich der betreffenden Anzeigen-Plattform gemeldet, seit dem ist wenigstens dieser Wagen nicht mehr zu haben :)

Nun meine Warnung(en):

  1. Niemals etwas mittels Western Union bezahlen!
    Auch nicht wenn dies an einen selbst geschehen soll.
  2. Niemals Geld auf "Vorkasse", sei es als Anzahlung oder Garantie-Leistung (für Bonität oder Treffen) egal auf welchem Wege bezahlen.
  3. Niemals auf Geschäfte eingehen, wo Fahrzeuge aus dem Ausland mittels Treuhandservice nach Deutschland verschifft/verschickt werden sollen. Denn diese Treuhänder sind meist Briefkastenfirmen, welche die Anzahlung für das Fahrzeug einkassieren, aber niemals ein Fahrzeug auf die Reise schicken.
  4. Vor dem Kauf immer mit dem Verkäufer in Kontakt treten und verlangen, dass dieser mehr Details und/oder mehr Originalbilder (vor allem vom Innenraum) zum KFZ sendet.
  5. NIEMALS persönliche Daten, und schon gar keine persönlichen Fotos schicken (bin selbst zu Anfang drauf reingefallen) an den Verkäufer senden. Diese Daten werden nämlich zum Fälschen von Ausweisen und kreieren von neuen Anzeigen benötigt.
Vielleicht sollte man einen Bereich im Forum machen, wo man auf solche Sachen hinweisen kann und/oder andere "Geschädigte" berichten bzw. Hilfe suchen können.

Anbei noch ein paar interessante Links

Vor dererlei Machenschaften wird schon länger gewarnt.
Vor dererlei Machenschaften wird schon länger gewarnt.
Jepp, aber das hier ist doch echt mal extrem ausführlich :)

Leider ist es so, dass die ganzen Online-Automärkte verseucht mit so `nem Blödsinn sind. Das kostet Zeit und Nerven, wenn bald jede vierte (das was ich mittlerweile statistisch bei meiner Suche nach einem KFZ ermitteln konnte) Anzeige so aufgebaut ist. Und glaubt mir, irgendwann fällt doch einer mal böse auf so was herein und verliert richtig viel Geld dabei.
Eine andere neue Masche ist auch, dass versucht wird Unfallwagen oder gestohlene Wagen an den Mann (bzw. Frau) über die Online-Märkte zu bringen.

Daher ein weitere Hinweis:
KFZ aus Polen, Tschechien, der Slowakei usw. beim Kauf (wo von ich persönlich abrate) sehr sorgfältig begutachten und alles ganz genau kontrollieren. Am besten Zeugen, der sich mit so was auskennt mitnehmen.
Immer - nochmals: IMMER - beim Kauf eines Gebrauchtwagen durch den TÜV oder Dekra (oder ähnliche Prüfunternehmen) checken lassen!

Es gibt halt 'ne Menge Kohle zu machen im Gebrauchtwagen-Handel und somit gibt's auch 'ne Menge "Volk", die geschönte Karren verhökern. Daher immer einen Fachmann drauf-/drunter-/reinschauen lassen, dann hat man einen ungefähren Eindruck vom wirklichen Zustand des Wagens...
Immer alles schön quittieren lassen nicht vergessen. Ansonsten würde ich mich auch immer gründlich kundig machen, was bei einem Gebrauchtwagen alles zu beachten ist. Also: Freunde fragen, die das wissen, oder Internet.
Interessant, denn solchen Mailverkehr hatte ich in der Vergangenheit 3x allerdings auf Deutsch.:D Anschließend habe ich den Wagen bei entsprechneden Online-Haus gemeldet und innerhalb ein paar Minuten, vllt auch Std., war der Wagen aus dem Angebot.:D:D

Mittlerweile ist das ein Hobby von mir geworden.:):):D:D
Das macht richtig Spaß.:freu::freu::freu:
Würde generell nix kaufen was nicht auf Deutsch ist oder aus dem Ausland kommt. So Sachen wie , das Auto ist in Deutschland zugelassen, steht in England und das Geld muss nach Spanien überwiesen werden, find ich sehr suspekt. ;)
Solche Anzeigen melde ich immer sofort und das macht mir persönlich viel Spaß, so Spinner welche versuchen einen 2010er Insignia mit 30tkm und voller Hütte für 9 Scheine abzugeben. ;)
Ich kaufe daher meist bei Markenhändlern oder lasse den Wagen vom Privatmann bei der Probefahrt beim TüV für 50€ durchchecken. ;)
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